Tuesday, 31 March 2009

By Any Other Name

Phew I've just sat down after two hours of ironing, what a modern man I am!

Other than that I don't have much to say, I've a gripe I'm saving up because it goes with an image I haven't processed yet, it might not work, who knows? You'll have to wait and see, or not as the case may be.

So this is obviously another from the same series as yesterday's that I'd taken a second look at over the weekend. The consensus around here was that the bar in the foreground is not a distraction but personally I can't make my mind up about it? So let me know what you think about that?

I remember writing at the time I first posted some from this series about what a gentle pace of life seems to exist on the waterways. Perhaps I was being romantic but it took me back to younger days when life did not seem so frantic. I don't know if I said this at the time but it brought back a specific period in time; Wednesday afternoons, school would finish early, there were no cars to speak of really, we all walked home (no really we did), shops closed early and I remember distinctly the sound of silence mixed with summer sun. I could go on and bore you but let me leave you with this question; When did you last hear nothing but peace and quiet?


Monday, 30 March 2009

Raising The Level

So I've been absent for the last few days, did you miss me? Did you notice might be more appropriate!

I needed a break, posting every day since October had taken over and left me feeling that I simply HAD to post so I forced myself to take a few days off and feel better for it. I didn't stop taking pictures mind you, or visiting your blogs, although I might not have left a comment I was still looking ;O)

The thing is I really enjoy images, taking them, processing, blogging and looking at others work too. If I have to back off every now and then to keep that enjoyment then that's what I have to do but I'll try not to do it too often.

There's also a feeling that I need to better myself every time, which in theory isn't a bad thing but in reality there will always be some images that are better than others. There will always be some that I hate a few days (minutes?) later. So I guess all I can do is try to improve overall.

So with all that said here's a real old one that I'd not processed before and looked at over the weekend. Let me know your thoughts as always.


Thursday, 26 March 2009

Fixed To The Spot

I've had one of those days where the goal posts kept on moving and therefore I didn't seem get very far with anything, most frustrating!

Thanks for all the opinions on yesterdays post, it would appear divided but I think I already knew it was too busy. I'm going to go back and get some different shots, take my tripod and take my time. Try and fit in more of the subject whilst keeping some of the surrounding to give context.

So today's shot I've again had for quite a while but only just came across it again. I think I'd struggle to say just what it is I like, something about this chap and the mannequins behind him. Also the dotted lines running across reminded me of one of those kids toys you get where you spin the three sections and make up funny looking figures with different heads etc, know what I mean?

As a side note I've noticed whenever I catch myself in a frame I always stick my left leg out at a funny angle when shooting, arty eh? LOL


P.S. that "Love Shack" from a few posts back.....they pulled it down, so I was wrong, good job I shot it when I did then!

Wednesday, 25 March 2009

The Lost Gardens

Another Wednesday so it's been youth club tonight, still not many more until the summer break and then I can get out walking with my dog and my camera, looking forward to that :-)

Not far from my house in the middle of a farmers field there's a small copse of trees, if you venture inside and climb the small bank you'll find this. It's what remains of part of a garden and a swimming pool and a strange shaped pool at that. don't actually know what house it belonged to (because I haven't asked as I'm sure I could find out) and it's not really that old as I have a photograph of it being built (not one of mine, I'm not that old ;-) I shall have to ask some questions about it.

I'm not sure if this actually works. It is tone mapped and I like the tonality of the pool but I think maybe the whole thing is too busy. It's actually a very old raw file that I hadn't worked on, perhaps I should go back with my tripod and try again?

Let me know what you think.


Tuesday, 24 March 2009

Up Above The Streets & Houses.....

I'm feeling a little off colour this evening so I'm going to be quick.

This image has nothing to do with Rainbow but the theme tune was running through my head the whole time whilst processing this one, now I can't get it out of there!! If you don't know what the Rainbow tv show is go look it up :)

As a side note I've been told that the page is slow to load and it has been for me too but I'm pretty sure it's a blogger problem because I've noticed it with other blogger pages. If you're viewing the main site and it's slow click on the heading of the post you wish to look at, that should load pretty quickly.


Monday, 23 March 2009

Carved by Nature

I was going to have a moan about the current story of politicians and their second homes scandal today but we all knew they'd been ripping us off for years anyway eh?

I had another tone mapped image I could have posted today but as I said previously I don't want to bore you or I.

I enjoy tone mapped images, creating them and looking at them but my interests are wide and varied. In short I don't want this to turn into a blog with nothing but tone mapped or HDR images. There's nothing wrong with that, just in case I cause offence, I just want to keep things varied on my blog.

So this image would have been easy to tone map but I took a different route. I was conversing with a fellow blogger the other day about a feeling of peace and almost belonging. I love all sorts of places, I love where I live but the ocean is the place I feel most at peace. Away from the worries of frantic everyday life, work, bills etc when I get back to the sea it feels like my soul has been cleansed. That might sound twee but that's the best way I can explain it so there!! ;O)

I love the way the sea has carved this groin over the years and left these parts looking like two ankles below powerful calves. I don't think I could have ever carved this so perfectly if I tried.

So let me know what you think as always.


Sunday, 22 March 2009

Mothering Sunday

Ok so I guess that it's a bit late in the day for this (10.24pm as I write) but better late than never.

A departure for me too I suppose but an appropriate image for the day.

So for all Mum's, past, present and future this image is for you :O)


Saturday, 21 March 2009

Whispering Grass

Ok a real quick post tonight folks.

It's been one of those days of dashing around everywhere and I'm going to put my feet up :O)

This is another tone mapped image and probably the last one done in this way I'll post for a while, wouldn't want you or I getting bored now!

It was just another of those problem images that I'd held onto because I couldn't strike a balance that I liked but the tone mapping has brought about that balance in my mind at least.

Let me know your thoughts as always.


Friday, 20 March 2009

Ground Level

Another beautiful spring day eh?

So no complaining about the weather but never fear I have a back up plan! I need some ink for my printer. I don't print a lot but it's annoying not to be able to, plus the printer is on the network and therefore gets used for homework, vouchers etc. I do print images occasionally, stuff for family etc, if I want to frame anything or of course want anything bigger than A4 then I use a lab which I'm sure works out cheaper anyway and that's my point. Printer ink seems to be one of those things that's actually increased in price, cartridges that were costing £6 or so are now over £10 even from discount places on the internet. To replace four inks would cost approx £54 whilst a new printer of the same spec and maker is £86, now come on folks that's just not right is it?

I read somewhere a while back that ink was worth more than gold gram for gram and I believe it. It just seems to be the norm, you've bought the machine so we're going to stiff you on the consumables. I wonder where it will end? Will we continue to put up with it or will they finally feel the pinch and bring the prices down for a product that must cost only pennies to produce (especially those without a print head attached, which mine are)?

So onto the image then. I did tone map this but again just to balance the image as masking off to bring back the detail in the sky would have been nigh on impossible. As I've said before trying to straighten this church up is impossible and it's not lens distortion either, it's just not straight in the first place but that's part of it's charm I guess.


Thursday, 19 March 2009

The One That Got Away?

Ok no moaning tonight :O)

Seriously I've had a real busy day and I'm whacked.

I shot this last summer, I was walking around the golf course late one evening (no I wasn't playing, I was walking Tez) and I heard this big splash in one of the lakes. There are some big fish in there but this was all I saw. I find it calming.


Wednesday, 18 March 2009

This Old House

Unemployment reached two million here today, it's highest rate for twelve years.

Every day more and more lose their jobs whilst the fat cat from RBS (you'll remember that we bailed them out as good old taxpayers, thanks Gordy) walked away with a cash payout and a pension of £694,000 per annum at the age of 50. What did he do for this? Financially ruined the bank. Hey boss if I put us out of business tomorrow what sort of payout can I expect?

Do you know if I work until I'm 65 I'll probably just about make that in the rest of my working life, if I'm lucky enough to be employed all of that time. Of course they'll be National Insurance to pay, then income tax, then tax on fuel, insurance premium tax, road tax, VAT on fuel bills, in fact VAT on everything except food and books (but hey watch this space). I've actually said to myself that I'm going to sit down and work out how much of my weekly pay goes into my pocket but do you know what? I'm actually a bit scared of doing so because I think the answer would be more frightening than I imagine!!

What's my point? I haven't one, I'm just moaning, surely you know me by now ;O)

So the image then. This Old House, ok, ok I know it's a garage, call it artistic license!! I worked hard on this one and I was going to post it yesterday before I showed it to a friend who pointed out, quite rightly, that it wasn't up to scratch. So I redone the whole thing today and I'm much happier with it, so I need to thank him, thanks you old goat I appreciate it ;O) I really do mean that (no not the goat part) if no one tells me it's not good enough how will I ever know?

I'm not sure why it's falling into disrepair and not being used. It's opposite a matching house which looks a bit shabby also. I'd love this garage, not to put a car in of course. I could have a wood working shop downstairs and an office upstairs, although I admit keeping the dust out of the office might be a problem but what the hell I'm just dreaming anyway!.........Power Mac with four 30" screens......2 x Drobo's with 8TB of storage........Small studio perhaps...........sorry drifted off there.

Let me know your thoughts as always.


Tuesday, 17 March 2009

Spring At Last

I've been messing around with Dropbox this evening. If you need to share files for work or with family & friends you should check it out!

This is the spring image I was talking about yesterday. It meant spring had arrived to me because this was the first day that warm spring sunshine came flooding through the back door. Tez loves a bit of sunshine, he lays in the warm spot and as the sun moves so does he. Enjoying it so much he was that I actually managed to take his picture without getting his nose stuck on the lens!


Monday, 16 March 2009

Spring Fever

I saw what I thought was a great shot today.

I was standing outside at lunchtime enjoying the warm spring sunshine and there were two chaps painting the unit next door. They were painting the windows, one window was slightly larger than the other, the larger one is slightly higher. The chap painting the larger window was a larger chap himself, on a slightly larger ladder and they were each painting the same part of each window with the same hand. Can you picture it? I assure you there was a great shot in there, I could see it in my mind's eye.

So where's the shot? I didn't have the nerve, the camera was just inside but I would have been so obvious. If I'd been walking down the street with my camera in hand I'd have taken it but as it was I would have stood out like a sore thumb, at least that's how I felt. I need to get over the nerves, they get in the way! Would you have taken it?

So Moody Monday this week is spring fever and I had a different shot in mind but whilst it was obvious to me that was the connection I think it was too tenuous for the world at large. I may post it tomorrow and explain!

By the way after many questions regarding yesterday's shot, it is an old clock but I did apply some texture to it too.


Sunday, 15 March 2009

After Three & B4 Five Comes 04!!

What a beautiful day here, Spring really has sprung. The day started with some spring cleaning and turned into sod the cleaning lets get out in the sunshine for a walk. Devoid of idiots in red jackets all went well today.

So if you've read the title you'd be forgiven for thinking I've finally lost it but many of you know that already happened long ago!!

If you're viewing the blogger version of my site (if not click here) then you'll have seen the counter on the right hand side counting down to.........The 4am Project. So what is it? Well it's a fantastic idea and that idea is a simple one "What's your view at 4am?" get out with your camera at 4am on the 4th of April, show us your view at the magical time of 4am and help compile a snapshot of the world.

So head over to The 4am Project to find out more and get involved, all you need is a camera and you're all set. I look forward to seeing what you see and I've a few ideas of my own as to what I might be shooting. There are already some great images over there too so check them out for some inspiration!

The image today, I thought, fitted in with the counting down to 4am theme and before somebody smart points out that it's not pointing to 4 o'clock, I know, it's the best I could do at short notice ;O) Should have saved that big 04 from the other day eh?

On another note a buddy of mine has just started his own blog so head over here, take a look, give some encouragement and leave a comment or two, you know they mean a lot especially when you're starting out.


Saturday, 14 March 2009


It's been one of those days where nothing went wrong as such but it didn't go to plan either.

Work was the same old same old. Went to go for a walk this afternoon all armed with cameras and small portly dog. We'd not got very far when we came across a load of wallys on horse back, dressed in red jackets and followed by fifty or so dogs. They blocked every footpath and bridleway, dashing around shouting, blowing horns and shooting something off . Tez thought he'd be able to take on all of the dogs so I had to stick him under my arm and we beat a retreat back home again.

Now fox hunting is banned right? So what were they doing? Do they just go out and pretend to chase something or do they just break the law? We weren't the only ones who had to turn back either, they'd effectively cut off every pathway. Anyway it really ticked me off.

I've had this image for ages. I took it because I couldn't quite believe that the sea had managed to breach this wall, it just goes to show you the power it has. I've tried to process it many times but never could get an image that was balanced and looked right to me. So I tone mapped it instead, not to get an HDR look or feel to it but just to balance it. The other thing that bothered me was the fact that I'd stupidly plonked the breach right in the middle of the frame but I've tried different crops and decided in the end that it looked right to me just where it is. Let me know if you think that's right or wrong and if so where would you have put it? If we don't share these thoughts and ideas we can't improve, well that's how I see it.


Friday, 13 March 2009

Further Lectures

I've not a lot to say today, I've had a busy day at work and I'm beat.

I think I've had a bit of a flat week from a photographic point of view. Need some fresh ideas again me thinks.

Anyway at the risk of boring you this is another pseudo HDR of the building I posted a couple of days ago, I think I prefer this one though I would struggle to articulate why that's so.


Thursday, 12 March 2009

Twisted Business

You know what? Today wasn't too bad, how many times do you hear me say that?

I think this bug is finally leaving my system and not before time. Work was ok, seemed to get stuff moving forward on all fronts and somehow I didn't have to go grocery shopping, so all in all a result ;O)

This is another shot from a series that I took of the redevelopment in the industrial area of my old home town. I didn't set out with the intention of adding the textured layers but once I tried them they seemed to help convey the mood I was after. The remains of industry, all those jobs lost, people's future transformed through no fault of their own. You can see a straight version here, let me know what you think about both versions, I like to get the feedback on what you think works and doesn't.


Wednesday, 11 March 2009

04 Thunder & Lightnings

Just a quick post tonight as it was youth club again tonight so I'm late posting again. Besides that my blood is still simmering from yesterday!

I did have another HDR that I though I might post but variety is the spice of life as they say! I shot this at Duxford a few weeks back. The tantalising glimpse through the window is an English Electric Lightning.

I'm not much of a jet fan (scuse the pun) but ever since I read Thunder & Lightnings by Jan Mark when I was a boy this aircraft held an interest for me. It was (and I think still is) the fastest climbing interceptor in the world. Boy I'd love to see one fly but the CAA won't let them fly in the UK (I think because of something to do with avionics) so you can only see one, actually four, in South Africa. There's some videos on You Tube if you care to take a look, it's a incredible sound! In the UK we have to be content with running one up and down a runway :-(

Funny, all I ever wanted to do when I was a kid was fly, something went wrong along the way!! :O)


Tuesday, 10 March 2009

Time's A Wasting

Something really got at me today but then something usually does eh?

It was the story that I'm sure many of you heard about taking people who'd lost their jobs, the example being used was bankers, and training them to be teachers. The reason being that these people have "Life Experience" and they are intending to fast track them through training in as little as six months.

I think that's insulting. I think it's insulting to all those that have studied hard and trained for this vocation. Perhaps I'm biased, my wife works in a school and my son's partner is just coming to the end of two years at university to get her degree and still has much further to go in training once she finds a teaching job. So you could call that biased but it's also an insight as to what is involved to become a teacher.

I presume that we're also going to pay for the training as taxpayers. In my opinion the whole thing stinks folks and from what I heard on the radio today many teachers do too. If I decided tomorrow that I would like to teach it would take me at least three years, full time, to get qualified. If I wished to continue working at the same time it would take longer. I don't think there's any danger of me doing that but does that seem right to you?

So images, that's what this blog is all about ;O)

This is another pseudo HDR from a single file. Another that I was torn between colour and B&W with the latter just winning it over for me. You can see the colour version here if you wish. It wasn't the ideal image to start with because there was some minor highlight clipping but I liked the result all the same. I have noticed something seems to be lost in uploading. I was quite happy with yesterday's when looking at it from my hard drive but it seemed a little flat when viewed online, it had lost a little bite as it were, strange, any thoughts on that?

Side note; as I've just added the image I noticed banding in the sky, that's not present on the original, proof to me at least that something changes.

So let me know your thoughts on this, good, bad or ugly.


Monday, 9 March 2009

Love Shack

Still not feeling 100% but I hope that it's on it's way out of my system.

On top of that yesterday's thinking wore me out, I can only manage that once per week I reckon, I'm getting on you know ;O)

I was having a read through the latest tutorial over at Chromasia which covers creating an HDR from a single file so I thought I'd give it a go. I must admit I haven't finished reading yet but I'm forever impatient. Anyway if you hate HDR then you're going to hate this too but I have to say that I'm quite pleased with the way it looks. I'd tried working with the image as I normally would and it was just dull.

The shack itself is down the lanes next to a pub, there used to be horses in this small field but it went out of use, got overgrown and the shack fell into disrepair. It looks as though something is happening now though and judging by the way the rotten stuff has been carefully removed perhaps they're repairing it. So the title today is bitter sweet; I love old stuff that gets saved and repaired but the "Love Shack" song by the B-52's has to be my all time most disliked song!

So let me know your thoughts, good or bad, everything helps!


Sunday, 8 March 2009

Just Passing Through

I'm not feeling a whole lot better it has to be said but I did manage to get a few jobs done today.

I was flicking through some raw files today, really to get rid of the stuff I knew was no good or that I knew I wouldn't use. I was also looking for something to work up and post when I came across this.

Now I didn't intend it to be this way but just as I pressed the shutter it took off in the wind. Anyway I kind of liked it this way and it struck me that it was just passing through the frame, on it's final journey to somewhere. It would find a resting place and eventually it would be food for new life somewhere continuing the circle of life. Not wanting to be morbid, it's much like ourselves, we are as individuals just a small part of the story of our planet, caretakers if you will. Not that we're making a very good job of it on the whole but I hope that we're learning how to take better care and that effort is enough and in time.

As we all scramble around worrying about the current economic situation, a system we created, which essentially involves the passing around of bits of paper and metal in exchange for goods and services. We're in a mess because of that need, drive to make more profit, produce more growth than the year before etc, essentially it's greed. People are losing their jobs which in turn leads to going cold, hungry, losing homes etc. Further from home people are dying from starvation and preventable disease. I offer no solutions, I'm as wrapped up in this system as the next person but when you mentally take a step back and look it all seems a bit ridiculous.

I'm not a great thinker and certainly not a great writer but I hope I've made sense enough above for you to get the gist of what I mean?


Saturday, 7 March 2009

Under The Weather

Feeling a bit under the weather this evening. It's one of the highlights of having a wife that works in a school (she's caught it too and not just carried it home), there's a new illness every week!!

So as I write I have a high temperature, sore throat and a headache, let's just hope it stops at that. So with that I needed something peaceful and calming to look at. I guess that it's not much to look at but I like it and particularly the way the clouds seem to be in relief.

That's about all I have to say, I'm going to crash out and feel sorry for myself :(


Friday, 6 March 2009


First thanks to those that responded yesterday in comments and by other methods, I appreciated all of your thought and insights. For those that said they'd miss my nutty ramblings every day, thank you, I really was touched.

I don't have much moaning to do today but I'm sure something will turn up for tomorrow so never fear ;O)

Photo Friday theme this week is "Isolation" and I guess you can interpret that in many ways if you think about it enough. From an isolated subject, such as yesterday's post, to an isolated object/person in the middle of nowhere etc, you get the picture.....

Anyway I've been pondering on it all day and I had one that I thought would fit the bill and this isn't it! I came across this whilst flicking through, it is isolated in the sky but not only that I thought it represented a time when we stood alone and as you know my weakness for nostalgia and aircraft it seemed an obvious choice. I'd already processed it but wasn't too keen on the colour so I opened up the raw file and gave it another bash. It's OTT I know but I like it and think it conveys what I wanted it to. The reason I took the shot in the first place? Well my lens isn't long enough (about the only thing I miss about the old Fuji) so though I'd go for a silhouette look instead.

Oh and I'm presuming that you all know it's a Spitfire, which of course you might not, well it is ;O)


Thursday, 5 March 2009

Drum Roll

I've been asking myself a question over the last few days, weeks perhaps. Why do I keep blogging?

Don't get me wrong here, I obviously enjoy the photography and blogging is the best way (in my mind) to share images with other people. What I'm getting at is the compulsion to blog every day.

I know people that have done an image a day for a long time and in the end took a step back and slowed it down to three or four times a week. I've blogged every day since the beginning of October 2008 and only missed a day because of a power cut. Before that I blogged as and when I could but it gradually increased as my confidence with the camera increased now I feel a compulsion to put an image up every day. Am I going through a phase where I'll burn myself out and then take a layoff, or drop it down to less postings per week? Would anyone notice if I didn't do it apart from me? Do I sacrifice quality for quantity?

So really I'm just asking a question as I know that a lot of my readers post every day too. How do you keep it going? What drives you to post every day? Do you take time off and come back fresh or just keep on going? Let me know your thoughts.

The image today is a Drum Major's mace. It brought back memories for me as I tried a stint at being a Drum Major. My lasting memory is that we were out doing a carnival and the band thought it'd be very funny to turn around en route so when I counter marched the band were halfway down the road coming back towards me with stupid grins on their faces, buggers! I went back to being a bugler pretty quickly ;O)


Wednesday, 4 March 2009

Staring Down The Barrel

Phew, we've just returned from youth club.

We had a huge amount of kids there tonight-I think each one had digested a bag of sugar for tea and I feel like everything in the image above was pointing at me, lol. It's all for the greater good, they enjoy it but I can't say I'm sorry to be home!


Tuesday, 3 March 2009

Lack of Imagination

Well I haven't started my caffeine experiment, you can tell because I'm still awake!

This, obviously, is another shot from Panshanger Aerodrome. The same hanger that I posted a few days ago and I think I prefer this one. It shows more of the detail.

It occurred to me today that one of my regular readers lived in the street that was on the natural boundary, separated by a bridleway, of the aerodrome and the housing. I won't say your name as I'm sure you remember where you lived!! Seems a long time ago now eh? Yet still fresh in my mind, curious.

This is where, in my opinion, the development should have stopped. The land is after all green belt but as I'm sure many of you have seen all over our country that green belt moves oh so conveniently when there's development and lets be honest, money involved.

Now housing spreads across much of the land leaving only one grass airstrip when there once were four. Some of the streets in question are now "Halifax Way", "Shackleton Way", "Stirling Way", "Lysander Way", "Martlesham", "Wellington Drive" and for the love of something or other "Bader Close". Now none of these aircraft had anything to do with Panshanger (save for a Wellington crashing nearby) or indeed the closely linked De Havilland Aircraft factory and I'm 99.9% sure Douglas Bader never came near the place. I was going to say that it shows little imagination but really it shows none. At least they could have used names that reflected the heritage of the site. Funny enough the people that live in these streets now wish the airfield to remain, why? Because any further development will spoil the views. I don't blame them but I bet the people in the last twenty streets felt the same.

Ok I'm going to sign off. I'll probably not post any more from here as you're probably sick of seeing them and most definitely sick of hearing me bang on about it. What's gone is gone and I'm probably powerless to change the future too.

Thanks for reading anyway.


Monday, 2 March 2009

Facing Facts

There was a lot of talk on the radio this afternoon about people's intake of caffeine and it's effects.

Now I've never really understood the coffee buzz that people talk about, I don't feel any different after a coffee but when I think about it I probably do intake a lot of caffeine in way one or another. I'm one of those twitchy kinda people that can't keep still but I've been like that always, I'm either on the go or I fall asleep. If I cut down my caffeine intake what hope would there be? Every time I sat down I'd be off in the land of nod. Might try it just because I'm curious!

This is another shot from Panshanger. I'm not sure how many more I will post of this series, I've some more shots that I like but I think there are better ones to be had. The title? Well even I have to concede that whilst I want to save everything old and hate to see history disappear, this one building has probably gone too far. It doesn't have the brick wall end like the others and the steel structure inside. From reading the book I'm pretty sure this one was knocked together with the remains of one of the North side hangers. Somebody prove me wrong and fix it!


Sunday, 1 March 2009

To Let

What was a leisurely Sunday, starting with a tasty breakfast, tea, more tea and a nice long walk, turned into panic stations when I realised we needed to get to the shops to get my son new school shoes! Such is life, at least I remembered ;O)

This is another from the industrial area that I mentioned yesterday. There really was some great light around yesterday afternoon. There's a word for it but I just can't remember what the hell it is because I'm just an amateur (that's a private joke between a friend & I folks). Whether I made good use of that light is another matter but the fact I noticed it shows progress ;O).

Anyway, the company I visited is in a brand new unit opposite these ones, a whole row of shiny new (five months old anyway) buildings all empty apart from their one. Wandering around the rest of the street(s) I was quite amazed at how many of the older units were To Let so why do developers keep building new ones? Some of these new builds stay empty for years, there's one I can think of that's been around maybe five years and has never been let to 100% capacity. It's not a question I have an answer to but with the current economic situation I'm glad I'm not a developer.